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TM44 analog logarithmic speed steps (not only linear)

Posted by klaus.steuer on 2022-09-27 20:01

Hello

I am using Dinamo with Z scale
Even i discussed this with Leon sometime ago, i didnt see any adjustments yet.
The linear speed steps for analog locos are not convinient.
The problem is, that with the min Voltage of 10 Volt, many Z scale locos are running 300+ km/h due to a missing step in the gear.
That causes, that i have only few speed steps left from zero to realistic speed.
If i could choose from linear to logarithmic speed steps, i could use much more steps which would cause a realistic acceleration and deceleration.
I see that i can choose it for motors and servos, but not for locos.

Isnt it possible to have this choice?
This is the only thing i have to complain with Dinamo but this causes as well that i cant convince people to use Dinamo at the moment.
Leon, couldnt you put this in the "To-Do" basket for the next release to help Z scale users?

Regards
Klaus

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Posted by BadBanana on 2022-11-12 18:02

I have no idea if this is possible, but I would also be interested in this enhancement to allow better speed control of analogue Z gauge locomotives. It is not always an easy option to convert such models to DCC, although I have seen that DCC would also offer great improvement of speed control.

Thanks,
Les.

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Posted by klaus.steuer on 2022-11-12 21:27

Dear Les, i think it can be done relatively easy but Leon doesnt pay attention to Z scale at all.
It's more than a year ago where i asked him to implement that, but there seems to be zero interest in getting z scale people as a customer.
Just today i did a speed measure with a new loco (88225 - the new BR 194 with brushless motor). I can use only 15 speeds from 63.
DCC is much easier but yes, for some locos its expensive. like steamer.
I am a bit disappointed about the attention on z scale, even i would have good access to the community (and therefore customers).
But look at the website and the efforts in Dinamo. Its more or less zero for many years. Unfortunately.

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Posted by BadBanana on 2022-11-13 15:02

Hello Klaus,
Yes - I understand and share your concerns. I have bought into the Dinamo system and especially the TM44 for use with Z gauge due to the flexibility of running analogue and digital locomotives on the same layout, and also allowing a limited conversion of some locomotives to DCC in the future where that is possible. It's up to Leon, of course, but my feeling is that this should be a relatively straight forward adaptation in the TM44 firmware with a simple switch selection in the configuration tool. Of course, I cannot be certain, not knowing how everything works.
I hope that Leon will consider adding this possibility in the future. I would be happy to help testing if it ever became a reality.
Kind regards,
Les.

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Posted by Leon van Perlo on 2022-11-14 16:10 Netherlands

Klaus,

The first email from me to you and thus the first contact between you and me was February 23, 2022. That was 8 months ago. So if you write "It's more than a year ago where i asked him to implement that, but there seems to be zero interest in getting z scale people as a customer", this is demonstrably incorrect. Is that detail important? I think so. It sets the tone for the discussion.

I have written several times that, IF what you demand is possible, I expect that it will require a lot of effort, which cannot be seen in isolation from a number of other major changes. I also have my doubts whether the adjustments you demand are the solution. But apparently you know exactly how it works and how easy it is to adjust. I don't think you can have a clue, because you didn't design the hardware or write the software. Maybe you are right and it should be very easy, but in this case it is not. Maybe it's just me, I'm happy to acknowledge my limitations.

FYI: Fact is that there has been a serious chip shortage for about 2 years now and it is expected that this will remain so for a while. If systems can no longer be produced, the functionality no longer matters. This caused me to set priorities and they haven't worked out in your favor. Sorry for that, but I stand by the choices I made.

Kind regards, Leon

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Posted by klaus.steuer on 2022-11-14 18:16

Leon,

to make a long story short:
Is the requested adjustment on your To-Do list and if yes, any idea when it will be implemented (or tried to be implemented)?

Regards
Klaus

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Posted by Leon van Perlo on 2022-11-14 16:13 Netherlands

Klaus,

A BR 194 does not have a "brushless motor". It is impossible to drive a brushless motor with DC. It always takes electronics to do that. The BR 194 has (probably and as far as I see in the documentation) a "coreless motor".

Best regards

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Posted by klaus.steuer on 2022-11-14 18:12
You are correct, sorry
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Posted by Leon van Perlo on 2022-11-13 15:12 Netherlands

Hi Les,

I also have no idea yet if it is possible. Is your post based on your own findings with Dinamo and Z-scale loco's?
If so, which loco's have you tested and with what results? And what is the track-voltage (power supply) you use?

Best regards, Leon

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Posted by klaus.steuer on 2022-11-13 18:38

Just some facts:

To be able to run sound locos, the power supply to the TM44 has to be 12,0 Volt
Any less will cause the sound is not as good as it should/can be.
Older 3-/5-pole locos are running at 300+ km/h at 12 V power supply.
This fact is reducing the available steps dramatically, if the real speed is about 80 - 100 km/h
Sometimes there are just 5 steps left
Newer locos, especially with one more gear step, are much better.

If the speed steps could be logarithmic and not only linear, there would be much more steps left for the speed between zero and 80-100 km/h

Even if i use 10 Volt, its not much better
With less than 10 Volt, some Decoder are not running anymore.

I just know from DCC (D&H and Velmo - which are mainly used in z gauge) that they use CV48 for speed characteristics.
0 = linear
7 = strongly curved

This would be fantastic to have for analog locos in z gauge

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Posted by Leon van Perlo on 2022-11-14 16:18 Netherlands

Question:

I have noticed that the cruising behavior in forward/reverse, especially at low speeds and especially with Z scale, differs considerably. Initially I was under the assumption that this was due to the motor/gear. But I noticed that it partly depends on the direction on the track. So if the locomotive moves faster reverse than forward and you physically flip it around, it will move forward faster than reverse. I noticed that at least with one locomotive quite strongly.
Can anyone confirm this is the case with them too?

Best regards, Leon

Vraag:

Ik heb gemerkt dat het rijgedrag vooruit/achteruit vooral bij lage snelheden en vooral bij Z-materieel aanzienlijk verschilt. Aanvankelijk was ik in de veronderstelling dat dit lag aan de motor/aandrijving. Maar ik heb gemerkt dat het mede ligt aan de richting op het spoor. Dus als de loc achteruit sneller rijdt dan vooruit en je keert hem fysiek om, dan rijdt hij hij vooruit sneller dan achteruit. Ik constateer dat in elk geval bij één loc vrij sterk.
Zijn er mensen die dit kunnen bevestigen dat dit bij hen ook zo is?

Met hartelijke groeten, Leon

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Posted by klaus.steuer on 2022-11-14 18:10

Hi Leon,

I've never seen that phenomenon and I have 140 locos.

Differences between forward and reverse are usually caused by the gear.
Especially after many years of running in the same direction all the time.

Regards
Klaus

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Posted by Leon van Perlo on 2022-11-15 14:51 Netherlands

Congratulations, but I think the amount is irrelevant in this respect.
I noticed this before, however never this strong and until now I also assumed it was motor/gear. Until I did a real test with a brand new loco I did not have before.
See attached diagram. Positive direction is to the right, negative direction is to the left. And it does not matter how the loco is on the track, so there is no difference forward/reverse and therefore it cannot be motor/gear.
This is a brand new DB220 with coreles motor. Power supply to TM44 = 11.5V.
The characteristic in negative direction is quite nice, 30 usable speed steps and a minimum sustainable speed of 15km/h. It can go slower, but not very well reproducable. The characteristic in positive direction sucks.

DB220.png (52.86 Kb)
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Posted by klaus.steuer on 2022-11-15 15:31

Leon,

what is causing this in your opinion?

Did you try an older loco (running 300+ km/h with step 63?) as well?

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Posted by Leon van Perlo on 2022-11-15 16:10 Netherlands

An old and rather worn DB361 has a similar behaviour, although not as strong as the DB220.
The DB361 does not move before step 18 (even with kickstart on) and it reaches 90 km/h at step 29.
A logarithmic speed curve does not solve the problem that you have only 11 usable steps, since the delta's will just move up for the center region. It could even turn out to become worse.

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Posted by klaus.steuer on 2022-11-15 16:31

Thats a bad candidate ;-)
The original max speed is 60 km/h
usually i add 10 to 20% which still looks ok
That makes it even worse

I'll try to do the same test you did with some old, medium and young locos
Lets see what i get

i can use one of my own analog controller on my test layout.
Maybe there is a difference between using this compare to the TM44

Will post the results as soon as available

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Posted by Leon van Perlo on 2022-11-15 16:54 Netherlands

You don't have to test 140 loco's. I'm just interested if you (or anyone) can reproduce the phenomenon I see: strong difference in behaviour by direction of travel, not (just) caused by forward/reverse of the loco.
I suspect your new BR194 has a similar motor/gear as my DB220.
And yes, if there is a difference, it is caused by Dinamo. I have a prime suspect in mind, and if I can prove it's the culprit, I may be able to come up with a solution.

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Posted by klaus.steuer on 2022-11-16 08:51

Leon,

Did a trial with 5 locos

I sent the file by email because its too large to attach here

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Posted by Geert on 2022-11-16 21:44 Netherlands

Leon, en anderen,

ik wil me graag als Z locomotief tester aanmelden alleen kan ik deze test pas vanaf 1 december doen. Is dat dan nog zinvol. Want ik denk dat je gelijk hebt Leon dat de locomotief analoog een verschillend rijgedrag vertoont voorwaarts in de andere richting. Dat wil graag nader voor je onderzoeken, maar dat lukt me nu dus even niet.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Geert

Dear Leon and others,

If needed I will test for you several Z analog locs, accept that I can't start before the first of December. Is that ok and helpfull.

Regards,

Geert

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Posted by Leon van Perlo on 2022-11-17 00:49 Netherlands

Hallo Geert, Altijd nuttig hoor.
Mvg, Leon

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